Re: substance and attribute
From the Bhakti List Archives
• March 22, 2001
Kasturi -Thanks for the mail. Let me state my understanding of the perceptions and the knowledge - it comes close to what you wrote - but with some difference - may be terminology is different. The Input from the senses - form, color, taste, touch and smell - is fed to the mind which integrates depending on the input from the object into an image on the mind-screen with all the attributes -The image in the mind forms a locus for which all the attributes are associated. The sequence of steps up to this point are perception - volition and cognition. At this point we come up with the conclusion that there is an object out there with these attributes - This includes the spacial coordination of the object in relation to the surrounding as seen by the senses. (time concept is little different since it involves two sequential cognitions and the gap between them is the time - hence in defining time we need mind plus two sequential cognitions, one after the other - Einstein defines as two sequential events - but in addition to the events we need again an observer or a conscious mind who does not change with the events) Upto now it is all input data. The conclusion involves that there is object out there and that conclusion involves intrinsically the mind assuming that there cannot be an object with out attributes - this is based on its conditioning from the past. Mind cannot perceive the object but only the sense input - The conclusion that it is an object (substance) with those attributes is a conclusion by the mind - as I understand it so far. Now proceeding further - Up to this it is to a large part vastu tantram - depends on the degree and intensity of attributes and efficiency of the senses and sense input - 20-20 vision etc. In the first-time cognition of the object (I am calling it as an object but attributes with an associated image of the forms locus in the mind), there is no recognition of the object as it is such and such - But once the memory is stored and I am informed by parent or father or who knows the object - the object with these attributes is a cow or horse or a human being etc. When informed I associate the attributed locus as this is a cow etc. Second cognition and the third cognition of the objects - from these- one can pick up the common attributes, dharma-s and come up a notion of jaati - Thus One picks up in the process the common features of the jaati to compare with other objects- this is a cow -those particular generic attributes that distinguishes the cow from all other objects. In all these process - if one goes deeper - as I see it - what we are knowing through the senses are only attributes and the conclusion that this is an object which is the substance with these attributes is made up inference by the mind that there cannot be an object without attributes. This is because substance is not grasped by the senses. The rest of the discussion of the reality of the object whether it is prama or bhrama, false knowledge, etc all involves subsequent analysis involving analysis of error or khyaati - where again different theories exist. Technically - dharma and dharmi aspect - It appears to me the dharmi is only due to inference in the mind due to the fact that dharama cannot be without the dharmi - what is that dharmi - no other definition other than the one which has dharma. This is really a circular argument since dharmi can never be known independently and to recognize dharma-s a conscious entity has to be there. Once inference, conclusion and what you call consciousness entity - are involved in establishing a dharmi which is a locus of dharma-s- we have to ask a question again can the existence of the object be established independent of a conscious entity - (which utilizes the mind (needs to have mind) to operate and to cognize the attributes etc.) It looks like you have gathered more books than what I have. Let us keep thinking about these. I will be out of the country the next four weeks and I will not be able to respond to any mails till I return Hari Om! Sadananda -- K. Sadananda Code 6323 Naval Research Laboratory Washington D.C. 20375 Voice (202)767-2117 Fax:(202)767-2623 -------------------------------------------------------------- - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH - To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list@yahoogroups.com Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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