Bhakti List Archives

Re: Are there any Svargam and Naragam?

From the Bhakti List Archives

Sadagopan • Tue Jul 02 2002 - 19:11:43 PDT 


At 10:11 AM 7/2/02 -0700, you wrote:

SRIMATHE  RAMANUJAYA  NAMAHA

Dear BhakthAs:

Srimathi Jayashree Saranathan's (JS)response to SrIman
VaradarAjan and SrIkrishna TatachAr is brilliant 
and balanced. The discussion is kacchitham and the insights
given by SrImathi JS (Brahma SoothrAs 3.1.7 to 3.1.27)
are the most appropriate ones about the "waking state of 
the soul , its transmigration to different spheres and 
return to this world and its consequent sufferings in 
the state of bondage (as Bhaddha Jeevan) ". 

For the benfit of the readers of sister lists ,
I will copy the original note of SrImathi JS for
reference .I am sure that she would not mind 
the sharing of the valuable information housed in her
note. This subject is surely of wide interest .
  
After discussing the soul's imperfections , 
the Brahma soothrAs focus on the ananatha kalyANa 
GuNams of the Lord free from all imperfections 
as Supreme Brahman and discuss ways to meditate
on Him.The Brahma SoothrAs establish that Brahaman is
the grantor of the fruits of all actions ( Phalamatha
upapatthE: BS-3.2.37).After discussion on meditation 
in the third chapter, the final chapter of the SoothrAs
focuses on the fruits of Meditation : Brahman , 
the UpEyam . The final & Fourth chapter deals with the ways 
in which the soul leaves the body and the last two sections 
of this chapter (4.3 and 4.4) describe the travel of 
the liberated soul by  the archirAdhi maargam , honors 
recieved from aadhivAhikAs and the Muktha jeevan manifesting 
itself in its true nature enjoying ParipoorNa BrahmAnanadham 
at the Supreme abode and never returning to the Karma BhUmi . 
Swamy NammAzhwAr (Vedam Tamizh seytha MaaRan) has
housed the descriptions on the ascent of the soul via
archirAdhi maargam and arrival at Sri Vaikuntam in 
the last two decads of ThiruvAimozhi.                                      

The subject matter of this thread is vast and will need 
the insight  from the discourses by our revered AchAryAs , 
who have spent their life time understanding these difficult 
concepts backed up by PramANAs from Sruthi , Smruthi 
and upabrhmaNams.To facilitate additional discussions , 
I will content myself with a brief discussion on two points 
mentioned by SrImathi JS:

FIRST POINT: SVARGAM AND VEDIC REFERENCES:
****************************************** 
(1)Svargam and Vedams: Upanishadic and Brahma Soothra 
references of Sage VyAsa have been touched upon already 
by her (Smt JS) and SrI Mani VaradarAjan. Let me cite 
a few Vedic references about Svarga Lokam that precede
the Upanishads .The place of Svargam in the hierarchy of 
worlds and the experience there are described by 
these manthrAs.

A. Yajur vedam XVII.67 (pruTivyAa--svarjYothiragAmaham):
Vedam refers to Svar LOkam as the World of "Supra-Sun ".
Svargam and Soorya derive their meanings from the same root. 
This is a world , a realm ,whhich is beyond the familiar 
rhOdasI ( Heaven and earth ). This is beyond PruthvI , 
anthariksham ( the interspace over which our atmposphere 
extends) and the celestail space ( dyauh )beyond anthariksham ;
this vast space is constituted by galaxies and stars 
including Dhruva maNdalam .The Svar Lokam attained due to 
the accumulated  Punya KarmAs by the jeevans is beyond 
this Dyauh lOkam . Svar lOkam is a world , a realm with 
Indran as the presiding deity (Svarpathi)of this supraheavenly 
realm.  AzhwArs consider PuNyam and Paapam as the Golden
and Iron handcuffs and do not wish to be associated
with them and seek Mukthi , a state , where one is
free from both kinds of karmAs. Svar lOkam is also 
referred to as " Uru lOkam " :
 
URUM nO lOkamnu nEshi vidvAn SVARVAJ jyOtir abhayam svasthi
rishvA ta INDRA sthavirasya bAhu upa sTEyAma saraNA bruhantha

--Rg Vedam : VI.47.8

Meaning: Thou with Your knowledge blesses us on to 
the wide word, even Svar , the light , which is
freedom from fear , with happy state of existence .
 
Other selected passages relating to Svargam in 
the ancient Rg Vedam are housed in the following
manthrams :

RV.VI.72.1 , RV.IV.16.4, RV. VII.99/3, VII.99.4

gnanthO Vrutraataran rhOdasI apa URUKSHAYAAYA-chakrirE
bhUvath kaNvE vrushAdhyumanyAhutha: krandadasvO gavishtushu

--RV: I.36.8

Meaning: Jeevans slaying the coverer (Vrutran ) 
have now travelled beyond both earth and heaven 
and made the wide , bright world, Svargam, their 
(temporary) world of residence. 

There are many other passages referring to Svargam 
as a world of radiance and enjoyment . After their
puNyAs , which got them there in the first place,
get exhausted the jeevans return with their residual 
karmAs back to earth. The Prapanna Jeevan however 
does not get here(Svarga) , but takes the DevayAna route 
to SrI Vaikuntam and never returns to the karma BhUmi 
(anAvrutthi sabdhAth, anAvrutthi sabdhAth)). 

>All descriptions about svarg and narag are found in 
>later-born purans and stories. Any evidence to the contrary 
>from the readers is most welcome)---(SrImathi JS)

SECOND POINT: PURAANAMS AND SVARGAM:
************************************
2) Among all purANams , VishNu PurANam composed by
Sage Paraasara hs been celebrated as PurANa Rathnam
by Sawmy AlavanthAr. It is more ancient than all
other PurANams since it is authored by none other than 
the Father of Sage VyAsa and the grandson of Sage Vasishta .
The passages from this PurANam has been taken up as
PramANam by AchArya RaamAnujA in His Sri BhAshyam .
This PurANam is not a "later-born purAnam " and 
indeed can be considered as first-born purAnam 
originating from a period coeval to some of 
the Upanishads . This PurANam has six chapters (amsams)
and many sections (adhyAyams) in each of the chapters.
Brilliant insights are given about the naraka lOkams ,
the tratemnts there proportionate  to the accumulated
paapams and PrAyasccitthams and the migration of the soul
after narakam . The third amsam ,seventh adhyAyam deals
at length with ViashNava prabhAvam (who is a Vaishnavan ? 
What are his glories ? how does Yanma dharma raajan treats
them etc., These two sections from VishNu PurANam of 
Swamy Parasara Bhagavaan are very pertinent to 
the ongoing discussions . 

A Study of VishNu PurAnam and its commentary (VishNu
ChitthIyam ) by EngaLAzhwAn , the disciple of AchArya
RaamAnujA would be most valuable to understand these 
concepts dear to VisitAdhvaithins. HH SrImath Azhagiya
Singar ( the Current PeetAdhipathi) has written a beautiful
commentary on SrI VishNu PurANam in 1996 . 

SrImath Azhagiya Singar ThiruvadigaLE SaraNam ,
RaamAnuja Daasan Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri SadagOpan










>EdumE eniya swargaththil, ennam naragil ettu
>ChudumE avattrai taru thollai suzhal pirappil
>nadumE eni nam Ramanujan nammai nam vasaThE
>vidumE sharanam....       (Ramanuja Noottrandhadhi)
>
>jayasree sarnathan.
>
>[ svarga and naraka do indeed exist, according to all Vedantins
>  including Ramanuja. Please see Brahma Sutra 3.1.15: "Moreover
>  there are seven (hells)." /api ca saptaH/.  The numbering of
>  the sutra may differ from commentator to commentator. 
>  -- Moderator ]




--------------------------------------------------------------
           - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -
To Post a message, send it to:   bhakti-list@yahoogroups.com
Group Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bhakti-list
Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/
 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/