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Are there any Svargam and Naragam?

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jasn sn • July 2, 2002 


SRIMATHE  RAMANUJAYA  NAMAHA


Subject:  Treatment of a Jeevathma after his
encounters in Sorkam and Naragam

Dear Bhagavatas,

Adieyen has a basic doubt in the treatment of
Jeevathma after his encounters in
Sorgam and Naragam. As per my understanding, a
jeevathma goes to Sorgam and
enjoys the comforts there in direct proportion to the
"Punniyams" in his
credit. Similarly he suffers in Naragam which is also
in direct proportion to
the "Pavams" in his credit. Once this treatment is
over, he has a zero balance
of "punniams" and "pavams" and he becomes eligible for
moksham, if he realises
and practices the "Artha Panchakam". But my doubt is
where comes the re-birth
of jeevathama again in this "leela vibudhi" as he now
has a zero balance of
"Punniyams" and "Pavams" (They have been spent or
compensated in Sorgam or
Naragam

Adiyen,

Varadarajan Ramanuja Dasan.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEAR SRI VARADARAJAN,
I am also 'haunted' by this question and let me share
what I know about this. But before that here is Sri
Srikrishna Thathachar firing a salvo. Let's see..


In response to Sriman Varadarajan's question on
svargam and narakam, 
my understanding is, this question does not araise for
prapannAs.
There is no svargam (heven), no narakam (hell), no
punarjanmam (rebirth) 
and only mOxam(liberation).

.. the elaborations, by whomsoever
it may be, are only (secondary)details; some of those
may serve some useful 
purpose, in guiding us to the source. They are only
vehicles at best. 

However, most other elaborations are unnecessary and
only shows the 
incredible ability of human mind to complicate things.
----------------------------------------------
DEAR SRI SRIKRISHNA THATHACHAR,
I AM GOING TO DO JUST THAT ;) 
 .. COMPLICATE THINGS FURTHER :-))
------------------------------------------------
In one way or the other we all have that lawyer in us,
sometimes more evident 
so than the Lord within us!
--------------------------------------------------
DEAR SRI SRI.. 
NOT THE LAWYER
BUT THE CHILD IN US 
WITH ALL THE CURIOSITY, EAGERNESS AND IMPATIENCE TO
TALK..GIVEN THE SLIGHTEST OPPORTUNITY..
that is why i am here... to speak about this
complicated topic, 
drawing courage from none other than my MENTOR, 
'INBUTTRA SEELATHU ERAMANUSAN'

Invoking his dedicatory opening verse in his sri
bhashya to Vedanta Sutras,

"May my understanding assume the form of loving
devotion to that Highest Brahman who is the Home of
Lakshmi, and to whom the creation, preservation,
destruction &c.,of all the worlds is (mere) play,
whose main resolve consists in the protection of hosts
of multiform subordinate beings, and who is specially
seen to shine forth in what constitutes the head of
the Vedas" 

The question raised by Sri Varadarajan can be dealt at
two levels.
-> by finding  out what happens to the soul (jiva)
after leaving the body, ie., whether it goes to any
places like svargam or naragam  
-> by finding out whether places called svargam and
naragam do exist.

To answer the first:-
 The consolidated version from different scriptures of
yore has that there are 3 ways of passage for the
beings after death.
1. Those who have done prapatti or Bhakti, go either
through the path of the Sun or the Moon,
or during the day or night 
or during the Northern or the southern course of the
sun  (the Uththarayana and Dhakshinayana)
and reach the Brahman (brahma sutras chapter 4)
They attain paramapada and there is no return for
them.

2. The men of good conduct attain the world of gods
and become Somaraja (king Soma)and on exhaustion of
meritorious deeds are reborn with 'residual' karma.

3. The evil-doers after having undergone the results
of their evil works in the abode of Yama (Brahma
Sutras)are again reborn through the same course
(lunar)

(I requset the readers who have access to the book,
Brahma Sutras, Sri Bhashya by Swami Vireswarananda and
swami Adidevanada to go through the verse 3.1.7 and
the explanation again and again. I think there is a
hidden clue in this verse which I want to elaborate in
the forth coming paragraphs)

It is said that the one who has done good deeds like
digging ponds for the benefit of people, performing
yagas or giving gifts to the deserving, goes through
the path of smoke and reaches the moon and becomes
Soma raja (king Soma)
It is also said that which goes by the path of smoke
etc becomes the 'food' of gods (Chandogya)in this
plane.

But the soul is not a material edible thing. Does it
make any sense to say that the soul which goes to this
plane will be eaten by the gods there and
simultaneously the soul is bound to enjoy the fruits
of its good karma?
Then what is that the text actually wants to say?
The explanation goes that the word 'food' is not used
in the primary sense but metaphorically, meaning
objects of enjoyment and the soul in turn enjoys their
(the soma gods') company!
The next sutra goes to say that after being like this
and after exhaustion of (good) work, (the soul) with
the residual karma descends to the earth. 

These and other verses that follow raise these doubts:

# How can there be any residual karma if the soul is
said to have enjoyed it in the soma land?  Does it
mean that whatever karma that is residual now must be
the bad karma? 

# Now that the residual karma is only the bad karma,
why doesn't the soul go to the land of Yama and the
seven hells as  happens for those with bad karma?
why does it descend to the earth straightaway? 

(Readers kindly note there is no reference to movement
of souls from soma land  to yama land or vive versa in
core scriptures like BS. All descriptions about svarg
and narag are found in later-born purans and stories.
Any evidence to the contrary from the readers is most
welcome)

# The evil-doers after  undergoing the fruits of their
evil deeds are said to descend the earth and are born
as the lowly beings, namely trees, animals etc.
But according to BS verse 3.1.8, the good ones who
have enjoyed the company of the gods of Soma come back
to earth with the good residual karma and are born in
good families, good places etc. How come they are now
left with good residual karma, since they must have
exhausted them all in the company of soma gods?

# If it is to said that they have some balance of good
karma to enable them to be born in good wombs, what is
the yard stick to decide how much to be spent in the
soma land and how much to be brought to the earth as
residual karma?

# The same types of questions arise in the case of
evil-doers holed up in yama land.

All these only go to show that there is something
wrong somewhere in our understanding of the whole
issue of souls reaching these levels and the so-called
enjoyment of fruits of their bad and good karma after
death.
Taking cue from the hidden clue in the verse 3.1.7,
shall we say that all that happens in the so-called
soma world is that those souls reaching there (the
transitory abode before preparing itself for the next
birth)are fortunate enough to be in the company of
other enlightened souls. Like how our guys and girls
always want to make it to the IITs or AIIMS in India!

Another way of looking at this is the repeated
injunction from core scriptures that the souls are
born again and again in this world to shed their
karma. Then how can they be said to reap the results
of the karma incurred in the earthly plane, at some
other plane where they do not even exist in the
physical form (made up of pancha bhoothas)?

Another reasoning to support the above view is that
the earth is said to be the Karma bhoomi
(MahaBharatha). It is only in this plane  that karma
phalam can take place consummerate to the karma
committed.The other worlds talked by our scriptures
are (apart from Bhoo logam)Bhuvar, suvar, Maho, jano,
Tapo and satya logam. Beyond these there is Vaikundam.

One is at will to ask why can't the Bhuvar logam be
the same as the Soma land or even svarga as most of us
have been treated with stories of svarg-narag etc.

The implications behind what actually is this Bhuvar
or even Suvar logam are both philosophical and
metaphysical or even might be to do with the levels of
ascendence of the soul that scriptures like Taiitriya,
Chandogaya and Brihadaranyaka speak about. 

The Taiittriya (let me take up this as i am somewhat-
though very little- familiar with this
Upanishad)speaks extensively about Bhoo, Bhuvar and
Suvar levels. There are as many as 5 levels of
explanations for these,(or for any philosophical
matter that we find in scriptures. It all depends on
our experience and  our understanding to grasp the
intricacies hidden in them.)

For our discussion here, suffice it to concentrate on
the following. 
Bhoo stands for Agni,
Bhuvar stands for Vayu and 
Suvar stands for Adhitya tattwam.
A correlation to this Taiitriya vachan is found in BS
too in 4.3.1 and 4.3.2
The soul on departing from the body begins its journey
from the light, (interpreted in the BS as agni)
proceeds through vayu (Bhuvar?) and the reaches the
Sun (Suvar) The subsequent verses in BS speak about
the 'guide' souls who conduct the soils to their
destinations.

Nowhere do these passages indicte the existence of
svarg and narag.A combined reading of the BS verse
here and earlier on Soma land only indicates that the
departed soul is not alone in its onward journey.
There is someone  to accompany it or guide it. 
If the Vayu level of Bhuvar is considered to be the 
transitory palne (because the soul is now prana devoid
of a body), we have the liberty to assume that it is
here it is spending its time with soma or yama in
accordance with the kind of company it deserves. 
Beyond this the Sun (Suvar) comes, reaching which the
soul marches towards paramapadam, because scriptures
speak in unmistakable terms that those fortunate ones
who reach the sun never come back!!

Are there any other proofs to say that svarg or narag
as we imagine do not exist, nor are our karmas spent
at thses places?

Difficult to say because even Nachiketas was
prohibited from knowing the answer for this.
But certain real-life occurences support the views
mentioned above.
One is the occasional cases we hear of (it must have
happened in many of our families) persons just hours
before dying,reportedly getting to see the pitrus or
beloved ones who have left long ago. (Guides or like
minded ones of the Soma land?)

The other is about the numerous well documented cases
of the clinically dead who have come back to life to
tell what had happened in the near-death conditions.
Their narratioins almost tally with the scenario
explained above (about guides in accordance with their
belief, say a christian getting to see angels to guide
etc and going towards a light and so on)

For further information in  connection with  the above
views, I suggest a reading of R.K.Narayan's novel 'The
English teacher'( a reflection of his real life
experience after his wife died) and the books by the
Buddhist monk, Lobsang Rampa, particularly, the book
titled Twilight which also contains more of
Visishtadwata views!!

I request the devotees to have little more patience in
reading this post because, I also want to say what Sri
Ramanuja says in Vedanta sutras about svarg.

>From the above discussion, we can infer that there are
actually no such places called svarg or narag and the
kind of good and bad attached to them. As I have come
across some discussion on svarg (not narag)by Sri
Ramanuja in Vedanta sutras, I think this post may not
be complete without highlighting what Ramanuja says in
his commentary on VS.

In his Sri Bhashya to Vedanta Sutras, Ramanuja talks
about Svargam in as many as 8 places.In all these
places he treats the subject in the light of the Vedic
injunction that, "he who desires to attain Svarga,
shall perform Jyothishtoma sacrifice" and elsewhere he
says that svarga is the world in which there is "no
heat, no cold and no disagreeable-ness". (the relevant
scriptures that speak about this sacrifice are Purva
mimasaka and Taiittriya samhita)

Prasna upanishad speaks of 16 kalas as those
attainable by a man and this list ends with fruits of
svarga.

The high point of the discussion on this in SriBhashya
to VS is Ramanuja's commentary in Adhikarana I
sutra-1, 'Mimamsaka refuted'
He finds the Vedic injunction 'JYOTHISHTOMENA
SVARGAKAMA YAJETA" neither daily obligatory, nor
occasionally obligatory. Because unlike the results of
the knowledge of the Brahman, which are infinite and
unenduring, the results of "these works (svarga kama
sacrifice)" .."are temporal, bear fruit as soon as
they are performed, in the form of plenty of food,
healthiness and such other things which are enjoyed 
then (and there)and consequently there is no knowledge
of the experience of that pleasure which in contra-
distinction to them has no nature of (the working) of
a commandment."

Now placing together all the information we have seen
above, some clarity seems to emerge (doesn't it?)

-> Svarga as spoken in / meant by scriptures is
different from what we, the small mortals understand,
as posed by Sri Varadarajan.

-> Svarga is a state of enjoyment which as Ramanuja
says, seems to be very much in the wordly plane (The
results of Jyothishtomena yagya)

-> The abode to which the departed souls ascend may
either be 'peopled' with souls of good nature and
souls of bad nature. This is decided by the conduct of
the soul while on the earth. This might be what is
meant by enjoying the fruits of good or bad actions in
svarg and narag.

-> Going by Sri Ramanuja's description of svarg as a
place where there is no dis-agreeable-ness, I get
reminded of the many references picked up in Rampa's
descriptions and after-death stories.There seems to be
perfect harmony and serenity in the other side. This
can either be called Pitru loka (BS speaks about this)
or the much higher lokas of kinnara, yaksha etc. Even
the Indra loka can be interpreted to mean the plane
that one attains if he/ she has controlled indriyas in
their life on earth. Because Indran means the one who
has conquered the Indriyas. 
 Taittriya upanishad minces no words in telling that
one attains a particular level based on what one
pursues (upasana). You believe there is svarg,(for the
sake of arguement, for nowhere in Tai Upa I came came
across a reference to svarg) with all its attendent
happy things, you will come have happy things of
svarg, so says tha Tai Upa. What you think, so you
become. Probably that is why, later puranas and
stories promoted notions about svarg and narag as
means to promote good conduct in people.

-> Enjoyment by indriyas is possible only in the human
form, and only on the Bhoo lokam.

-> The supreme place that is humanly possible is the
paramapadam which the mukhtas attain.

The next lower possible level is to reach the status
of devas which include pitrus, siddhas, gandharvas,
kinnaras, vasus and yakshas. This depends on the
differnt levels of knowledge attained by the jivas.
Once the time period to be in these levels gets over,
and if the jiva continues to possess residual karma to
be shed, rebirth takes place.  

The inferior categories are stated as those of animals
and plants.

It seems it is not only by our actions, but also by
our attitude we choose where we have to be after
death.
The real experience of happiness and suffering, if
they are to be synonymous with svarg and narag can
take place on the earth only where such experiences
can be felt through the indriyas and not in formless
states!

Quote 1.
THE MIND IN ITS PLACE AND IN ITSELF CAN MAKE A HEAVEN
OF HELL AND A HELL OF HEAVEN-- Milton
Quote 2.
IF THERE IS NO HELL, HOW CAN THERE BE ANY RELIGION?
                           -- Anonymous.
Quote 3.
VEDANTA RECOGNISES NO SINS, IT ONLY RECOGNISES ERRORS
AND THE GREATEST ERROR, SAYS THE VEDANTA, IS TO SAY
THAT YOU ARE WEAK, THAT YOU ARE A SINNER, A MISERABLE
CREATURE AND THAT YOU HAVE NO POWER AND YOU CAN NOT DO
THIS OR THAT -----Swami Vivekanada.

EdumE eniya swargaththil, ennam naragil ettu
ChudumE avattrai taru thollai suzhal pirappil
nadumE eni nam Ramanujan nammai nam vasaThE
vidumE sharanam....       (Ramanuja Noottrandhadhi)

jayasree sarnathan.

[ svarga and naraka do indeed exist, according to all Vedantins
  including Ramanuja. Please see Brahma Sutra 3.1.15: "Moreover
  there are seven (hells)." /api ca saptaH/.  The numbering of
  the sutra may differ from commentator to commentator. 
  -- Moderator ]

 






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