Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women
From the Bhakti List Archives
• January 31, 2003
Addressed to all the female members of the various groups
Respected Mother
This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by
various respondents. The writer once again thanks all for taking
pains to add to the knowledge for benefit of all.
The response of the writer is in brackets and underlined and
placed below the relevant comments by worthy bhaktas.
Please forgive the errors of the writer. No offense is intended.
If it seems some of the points are gender biased this is purely
co-incidental and not intentional.
This topic has been quite controversial over the past many years across
various groups, fora, philosophers, thinkers, religious leaders etc.
If the background base is always kept as the frame of reference then
everyone both man and woman would be able to appreciate the ground
realities
What is this background base ? VEDAS
The Vedas form the backbone of mankind's birth, life, death, after life and
the entire gamut of interplay in the universe. The Vedas are without end
or beginning, without any gender, invisible, eternally pervading,
ruthlesslessly neutral and ultimately are in 'Sound' form. It is said that
the Vedas precede even the Gods.
The human being's (man and women) primary duty even before Artha, Kama,
Moksha is to preserve and propagate the Vedas. In other words DHARMA.
Man and women have no other Duty other than this
If this primary duty is neglected, or diluted or compromised even a
slightest bit, then chaos starts, which is another word for KALI YUGA, the
present times in which we live.
How to preserve and propagate the Vedas whose form is 'sound' ? Simple.
Repeat, teach and evolve. Hence the oral tradition of passing on the
message, mantra, chanting, scriptures, knowledge to the next generation.
Daily blind repetition without even knowing the meaning was the first duty.
The Rishis got down to composing elaborate procedures and systems for
compliance with this diktat of the Vedas. This entailed tackling several
complex issues facing the Rishis of ancient lore:
1) The Vedic mantras are to be chanted in the same manner of chanting
in which they are learnt and there is no compromise allowed. The Vedas
prohibit any change. No human or God has authority to change this.
Therefore, the ancient Rishis through extensive Tapas and Yoga got divine
inspiration through the very ;'sound' of the Vedas and the message to
mankind was " ensure that the grammer, swara etc. are always kept in their
original pristine format as these are divine
The celestial carpenter Tvasta had a spat with Indra the king of the
Gods and without his Guru's help learnt a Vedic mantra composed of
certain syllables. The mantra had to be chanted in a particular and
specific manner. The brief meaning of the mantra was "Give me a son who
will be a slayer of Indra". However,. Due to a slight slip of the
tongue the mantra being 100% same, the intonation, pitch, inflection
while chanting got changed by 0.000001%. The entire meaning of the very
same words became " may Indra become the slayer of my son". !
This is because the Vedic chanting is double edged sword. The same
mantra can have different meanings for different purposes.
This implied that for perfect chanting, rigorous unrelentless training
was critical The person who is responsible for child-bearing therefore
cannot be expected to comply with this rigour and therefore, man was
chosen.
Even if a woman were to practice chanting and was able to sustain the
practice for long, if by mistake she made the wrong pronunciation, then
she would be harming her child, and maybe also cause damage to others.
Such extreme risks should be avoided
They codified these under the various subjects - details of which have
already been given by Shri Malolan Cadambi in his 28/1 reply.
2) Part of the Vedic command was that the mantras, chanting etc. should
be done full throated and in a loud voice for hearing at great distances.
Literally it has to be in a totally shameless fashion a roar. The reason
again was that the effect of sound to turn to benefit to mankind, the
sound had to be said aloud. In some mantras during homams the chanting is
done from the bottom of the pit of the stomach
Who, man or woman is fit for this job ? The man was chosen because women
had to bear the child and even by the most conservative estimate of
child-bearing once in a life-time, at least for 6 months during the
lifetime of the woman she would not be able chant loudly with the child
inside her.
3) To chant the Vedas perfectly meant that the person has to have good
physical stamina, sustainable over a long period. Why long period? Because
perfection requires practice and a minimum continuous practice of over 10
years. Someone had to therefore ensure that the Chanting population
maintained its stamina throughout the lifetime. And the someone had to be
from the same chanting category, not any outsider or stranger.
4) Further how to ensure continuity forever ? Everyone - man and woman -
had to contend with sickness, death, old age and other realities. The only
to ensure this was the procreation as designed by nature so that before
either or both die the next generation is there to take over the Vedic
mantle. This brought up the issue of child-bearing etc.
5) How to ensure safe, healthy long living progeny ? Who (man or woman)
is fit to be the vehicle for this requirement ? Whoever, either man or
woman was chosen then such a person will not be able to STRICTLY OBEY the
Vedic Law. Non-Obedience would invite trouble. So judiciously they
arrived at a decision taking a cue ( elaborated below ) from their source,
again, the Vedas. They decided that such a person (either man or woman)
who will take the burden of carrying the child - irrespective whether it
is a boy or girl will have to be Accorded a higher status to ensure that
such a person need not STRICTLY OBEY the words of the Vedas ONLY with
respect to chanting, repeating, propagating. However, the compromise for
such an relaxation would be that the person , will proactively and actively
and sincerely support the other opposite category i.e. if man is chosen to
carry the burden of pregnancy, then he is excused and he has to support
woman who will do FULL TIME CHANTING, CHANTING AND CHANTING,
SANDHYAVANDANAM, GAYATHRI AND REARING THE AGNI.
If women is chosen to carry the burden, then she is excused but she has
to support man in his duties.
Either way, man and woman were inter-dependent and one had to
necessarily support the
other who was busy in doing the Chanting.
In the end, the Rishis found that to meet all these stringent demands of
the Vedas, and since there were only two types of people. (a) male (b)
female some sort of solution had to be found because if everyone - man and
woman - STRICTLY OBEYED THE VEDIC DICTUM OF CHANTING then everyone - man
and woman - would have to say Gayathri, everyone - man and woman - would
have to wear the Upanayanam, everyone - man and woman - would have to do
the Sandhyavandanam forever, everyone - man and woman - has to sit in
front of the fire(Agni) for a minimum of 3 to 4 hours daily, everyone - man
and woman - will have to do over 25 samskaras, everyone - man and woman -
will have to do the Shrardam and Pitru works.
In such a case who will ensure that the food consumed by the chanting
people is pure, safe; who will ensure that the household of the chanting
members (everyone - man and woman - ) is looked after; who will care for
the children ?. Where is the support system to ensure this because only
a particular class of people could be involved EXCLUSIVELY for this special
job. Core competency was the key. Imagine in a family, if all the members
are involved in chanting with the same principles of the Vedas full time?
And since the Vedas had already declared that Gayathri is the starting
point and nothing can be done without Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam, no one
(male or female) could start Vedic chanting without these requirements.
Further the prerequisite for Gayathri and Sandhyavandanam itself was the
Upanayanam. In turn the primary requisite for Upanayanam was constant
ability to strengthen the body, mind, inner parts to have capacity,
capability, aptitude for learning, retaining, repeating, contemplating and
teaching Vedas - see above
Therefore, the person who was involved in chanting had to be segregated
from the rest of the people (both man and woman) and confined to a ghetto
called "agraharam" where the person is left to do the duty unhindered,
without any distraction, disturbance and problem. However, since the
person also had to have adequate body sustenance, the person should have
very good props or support systems to co-ordinate all infrastructure,
ward off problems, be the alter ego, literally the other half. Even now
there are orthodox agnihotris In villages who do not even take a sip of
water outside their house and do not eat any other food except those cooked
by their wife.
Some people might want to argue that this smacks of slavery of the serving
individual/category to the other, but this is a wrong notion. The farmer
helps cultivate the grain which I consume sitting in my office in
Air-conditioned. I pay income tax to the government who subsidize the
farmer. Whichever way one looks in this world there is one group helping
the other. Does it mean the helper is the servant and the helped the
Master? The master may be serving someone higher and so on. The chain of
inter dependence is innumerable. Everyone - man and woman - has to be
engaged in something worthwhile. So too one category was designated to
help the other in maintaining the sanctity of the Vedas.
The PARAMACHARYAR of Kanchi had a very good example for this EXCLUSIVE
notion. He maintained that "do we not take care of glass as
"fragile-handle-with-care-warning" when transporting? Why ? By the same
reason, should the Rishis not care for maintaining the purity and sanctity
of the Vedas ? Does this not warrant a distinctly separate, exclusive set
of people whose SOLE AND ONLY EXCLUSIVE PRESERVE WAS TO CHANT, CHANT AND
CHANT AND CHANT.?" Closer home, imagine what would happen if the Indian
Prime Minister or George Bush spent time in making sure their shirts are
properly washed, or ironed or their meal is properly done or their security
guard or the pilot all are appropriate and doing their jobs. They cannot
be disturbed. They have a different job while the support systems are
there to co-ordinate. Without the support the PM or George Bush will
collapse and will be an utter failure.
THE WRITER SINCERELY HOPES THE FEMALE BHAKTAS DO NOT TAKE THIS AMISS. THERE
IS NO DEGENERATION OF GENDER HERE. IT IS SIMPLY WHAT ROLE ONE PLAYS. EACH ONE
OF US HAVE TO DO SOMETHING TO BE ENGAGED. THIS SOMETHING IS A SUPPORT TO
ANOTHER AND VICE VERSA. THIS IS WHERE THE HINDU SYSTEM SCORES OVER ALL
OTHER SYSTEMS WHEREBY HIGHEST IMPORTANCE WAS GIVEN TO FUNCTION/JOB PROFILE
AND NOT THE COLOUR OF THE SKIN, MENTAL CAPABILITY, PHYSICAL CAPABILITY,
PERSONAL INTERESTS, GENDER ETC.
What would happen if such a via media is not taken? then utter chaos. Any
other basis other than FUNCTIONALITY / JOB PROFILE /CORE COMPETENCY would
be unfair and biased.
By observation of what nature had already intended in the external,
internal, physical, physiological, psychological at all levels, the Rishis
found that man had physical / external capability for hard physical work
and his physical limits could also be stretched.
By contrast women were comparatively with a different disposition.
Especially, during the 3 monthly days, and also during pregnancy from the
4th month till the 13th month extensive rest, care, delicate physical,
mental, emotional handling had to be there. So women could not be subject
to hard physical Labour or their physical and mental limits stretched
beyond a point without damaging their internal organs and causing emotional
instability
THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR WHICH ENABLED THE RISHIS TO FIX THE
TRADITION OF MEN CHANTING AND WOMEN SUPPORTING MEN IN THEIR JOB WAS THE
SANDHYAVANDANAM WHICH HAD TO BE STARTED AT 3:30 EARLY MORNING, EXACTLY WHEN
THE SUN WAS IN THE TOP AT NOON AND JUST BEFORE DUSK IN THE EVENING WITHOUT
LET, WITHOUT BREAK, FOR LIFE - The scholarly Shri Malolan Cadambi has
already elaborated on this in his rejoinder.
The category of person (either man or woman) who was excused for chanting
would also be logically excluded from the regimen of Sandhyavandanam. But
then why should such a person suffer just because nature has decided
something in their design ? What is the compromise which the Vedas were
offering ? Some solace ? some comfort ?
Once again the Vedas promptly came to the rescue of the Rishis. The Vedas
proclaimed Gayathri (FEMALE) IS the mother of Vedas. No one has heard of
anyone talk of Father of Vedas. So this without beginning, without birth
or without end entity called Vedas too has a source i.e. MOTHER a female.
And to chant the name of all gods, all beings, any Shloka, any chanting,
any prayer, any worship, suktha, veda parayanam, homam, any Shrardam, any
ceremony, any function, even before taking the permission of Vinayakar or
any god, the Supreme Mother's worship had to be done day in and day out.
And since it would seem incongruous and silly not to say the least for the
Vedas themselves to talk about Vedas, the Vedas sheltered under their
Mother, Gayathri and commanded everyone - man and woman - to reach the
Vedas only through their MOTHER. And since the MOTHER Gayathri is the
first mother there is no need for HER to chant her own name. A MOTHER by
her very stature commands respect and reverence while it is not mandatory
for her to show the same respect and reverence to others. Someone has to
be supreme and lead the crowd ? The CEO is the fit person. The CEO for
Mankind is the Mother of the Vedas the Gayathri. The rest of mankind who
do the bidding of the mother are the Clerks, workers, supplicants and
devotees.
Hence the common saying among Hindus "Mata Pita Guru Daivam". Guru and God
are also secondary to MOTHER
Therefore, the woman though not permitted to chant the Vedas is considered
not inferior but superior.
Looking at it from yet another view point we find that women are honored
more than the men folk so to say:
a) One of the names of Vishnu worship is called prominently
SriVaishnavism. The first word is Sri i.e. female. Sri is also the
prefix for Srinivasa of Tirupati, on whose chest rests the female. HIS
strength and locus standi is derived from Sri and not the other way.
b) The great Sankracharyars of Kanchipuram worship Kamakshi (female) as
a primary deity. Moreover, only for the Sankracharya status, the Seers can
see and bless anyone elder or younger, male or female, except the MOTHER.
Therefore, once a person is chosen by the Mutt to be the future pontiff,
has to give up among other things 'seeing' his mother forever. He may see
his father and the father may also meet him after his ascending the Mutt
throne. This is because He can bless his father as a human, and once he
ascends the Mutt seat he becomes impersonal to all, except his Mother. If
by mistake he sees his mother, he has to come down and prostrate before
her. Otherwise, all, even his own father has to prostrate before him. The
Sankracharyar will prostrate only before God and no one else. The only
human exception is his own mother. Hence his mother is forbidden to see him
and he is equally forbidden to see her.
c) Take the primary samskara for enabling the male child to start
chanting the Gayathri, the Upanayanam. The Upanayanam is done by both
parents. If unfortunately, the boy does not have a mother, then the father
alone cannot transmit the Gayathri mantra and perform Upanayanam in the
absence of his wife. Therefore, utmost care is to be taken to ensure the
safety, health, growth, well being of the women.
The father (male) is denied this privilege. So the supreme importance
is given to the Female/woman for mankind's welfare
THAT IS WHY DURING UPANAYANAM, THE VEDAS HAVE DICTATED THAT THE MOTHER
SHOULD BE PRESENT AND THE WOMEN OF THE HUSBAND ALONGWITH THE GURU, THE
CHILD IS PRESENT ENCLOSED INSIDE THE CLOTH. THE MOTHER REPRESENTS AT
THAT MOMENT GAYATHRI AND SUPERVISES THE WHOLE CHANTING TO ENSURE THAT
THE GURU AND THE FATHER ARE INDEED DOING THE CORRECT CHANTING. THAT IS
THE ONE AND ONLY TIME THE FEMALE HEARS THE GAYATHRI. THAT IS ALSO THE
FIRST AND LAST TIME THE SON DOES ABHIVADAM TO THE MOTHER AS HIS OWN
MOTHER PLUS MOTHER GAYATHRI. HE TELLS HER HIS GOTRA, HIS NAME, HIS
LINEAGE ETC. AND SHE ACCEPTS IT AND THEN DEPARTS OUT OF THE SACRED
ENCLOSURE TO HER ABODE IN HEAVENS.
WITHOUT THE WOMAN INSIDE THE SACRED ENCLOSURE, THE GAYATHRI CANNOT BE
TRANSMITTED AND THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF VEDAS ARE RENDERED NULL AND VOID.
SUCH IS THE SUPREME IMPORTANCE GIVEN TO THE MOTHER
d) There were sundry reasons also for women being chosen for a different
calling. The Vedic chanting, Sandhyavandanam etc. were to be performed
bare chested. Most temple priests and pooja etc. are done with the torso
being left bare with the Sacred thread shown prominently. Also, since the
thread was considered Sacred, while attending to nature's call and on some
other occasions, the thread had to be worn differently in a safe manner.
Performing this while wearing a 9 yard saree with upper cloth etc. would be
somewhat unfair to women folk.
Women are therefore referred in Vedic parlance as "Dharma patni". There is
no word as "Dharma-pati". She is the wife of Dharma i.e.that which is
upright. She is the supporter of Dharma and since her opposite is engaged
in Dharma, she too is putting her bit and helping.
Coming to our modern day, can someone say why are there no women in the
fire fighting agencies, in military (there is a small percentage everywhere
in Western modern nations, but this is still a miniscule percentage as an
exception, not an active force to reckon); in oil rigs; in diamond mines;
as engine drivers; cab drivers; long distance lorry drivers; Not because
of some chauvinistic discrimination, but because these are not the natural
potentialities of women. Their forte as per the ancient Indian Rishis etc.
was in pushing, encouraging, urging man and children to the Vedic path.
Physically, they may be wife, sister, mother, but their real purpose is to
represent Gayathri to goad man to do his job diligently.
----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/29/03 05:46
PM -----
Anand Iyengar
cc:
Subject: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women
01/21/03 04:09
AM
Respected All,
Adiyen is not knowledgable enough(in anything), but
when it comes to vedas i have heard from several
people that women should not be chanting the vedas.
Adiyen does not intend to discriminate women or hurt
anybody's feeling , so i request the learned
bhagavatas to throw some light on this issue.
Dasan Anand
The e_mail has been successfully scanned for presence of virus. It is
recommended to scan the attachment before launching.
**************************************************************************************************
--------------------------------------------------------------
- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -
To Post a message, send it to: bhakti-list@yahoogroups.com
Group Home: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bhakti-list
Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
- Next message: sadagopaniyengar: ""Adbhuta KEsari" or "SingappirAn Perumai""
- Previous message: M.G.Vasudevan: "sree vishnu sahasra naamaavali - post 45"
- Next in thread: M.K. Krishnaswamy: "Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women"
- Maybe reply: M.K. Krishnaswamy: "Re: Question regarding Chanting of Vedas by women"
- Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] [ attachment ]