Kundalini Yoga/Kaivalyam etc.
From the Bhakti List Archives
Unknown Sender • Tue Jan 21 2003 - 01:18:13 PST
This is a combined preliminary addendum to the points made by various
respondents.
The writer once again thanks all for taking pains to add to the knowledge
for benefit of all.
The response of the writer is in brackets and underlined and placed below
the relevant comments by worthy bhaktas.
"Balamurali N.S." To: s.ramachandran@hdfcbank.com
http://www.vethathiri.org for practical information of doing
kundalini yoga. Kundalini Yoga is not a mystery, not a frightening thing,
and neither it is for a exclusive few. I took initiation from them and I do
practice it and I can say from my experience that is a feeling that has one
has to experience rather than hear or read.
( Fair Sir. You have correctly mentioned. The experience
cannot be told
but has to be 'experienced' )
with warm regards,
Balamurali
rwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 05:33 PM
-----
"vaidyanathiyer "
sir,
namaskarams
i am really happy you have really takenup this issue. the yoga
kundalini upanishad,which gives complete details as to how it should
be done is with me also. if you are interested then i shall explain
the same. as far as vishitadvaita philosiphy is concerned,they don't
even atempt at realising the self,as it is against their
philosiphy.also they say only god is true,human beings are born out
of karma and utmost can ask for being pardened for this birth.ok they
are pardened then what happens. as far as i know,there are two ways
of reaching the god. one way is by surrendering to him and singing
devotional songs. second by realising the self which is god or
parabrahmam,which can be realised by awakening the kundalini
(Is this an conclusion or a doubt. If a conclusion then the writer
regrets that nothing can be more far from the truth. Please read
below for further details)
which is with in every human being. to do this we may encounter difficult
obstacles,which can be over comecome over a period of time,provided
the individual is keen to do that.this is basic of advaita which was
not agreed upon by sri ramanuja but has been proved by many whom came
later.in kaliyuga mere bhakti is enough to attain the god or
mukti,however realising the self reqires a little bit more
effort,which can be done by yogi's through yogakundalini.this is main
dispute between advaita and vishistadvaita.
i too is a beginer in this attempt.glad i have a friend.
thanks
cdr bvn
"balajiv_54
" cc:
sir,
your article is interesting one.this yoga is practiced by all yogis
to control the human body,and realise the self.the side effects are
not because of yoga,but because of not doing it properly.this is done
by great rishis who after long years of thapas,want to merge with
brahman.this is a advaidic concept and not accepted by the vaishnava
acharyas.the yogi attains nirvikalpa samadhi.
balaji
( However, if you read what the writer has mentioned towards the
concluding para of his first mail on Kundalini,Yoga does not render itself
to any sect, cult or religion. It is purely an ancient, proven,
scientific, universal code for humans to achieve their purpose, whatever
it may be.
Therefore, it is NOT ADVAITIC ETC...The names like Nirvikalpa Samadhi,
advaitic, Brahman etc. are not appearing in the orthodox exposition on
Yoga. These terms have been concieved, evolved subsequently.
Lastly, accepting or rejecting a concept is immaterial as far as Yoga is
concerned. The Great Patanjali has therefore, very very cleverly and
intelligently codified the principles in Sutra form. Any other form would
have not done justice to the principles.
You may ask what is special about a Sutra form? Briefly, a Sutra is a
terse,linking/hooking word(or words) pregnent with meanings and
interpretations and employe the MOST appropriate words and grammer. The
words are such that they are of universal application and cannot be subject
to ad hoc interpretation. Only one meaning can be attributed to them.
The contents of a Sutra are universal truths which reflects the "What is"
!!.
You are right, of course about the side effects which indeed come about due
to faulty practices, which are also clearly outlined in the Sutras.)
----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 09:17
AM -----
Visu9@aol.com
To: s.ramachandran@hdfcbank.com
01/18/03 07:24 cc:
PM Subject: Re: Kundalini etc.
/namastE Sri Ramachandran.
What you say about Kundalini is true. Once you activate it, all differences
vanish. That is one goes beyond /Sri vaishnavism, saivism etc.
It is the definition of a /sanyAsi that he or she does not belong to an
institution. That is, a true /sanyAsi is one who has no human conections
that bind him or her. He/she stands as an individual and only god is
his/her Master.
(There is a slight modification to this point from the Yoga
principles. In yoga the concepts of Sanyasi, God, master etc. are
all irrelevant. What seems to matter is that the individual no longer
exists and an altogether different merged state of an entity seems to
flower.)
In our times, Mahatma Gandhi was a true /sanYAsi. He belonged to no
institution and yet everybody needed him. That is what happens, when one
becomes a /sanyAsi.
(One is not sure about Mahatma Gandhi...although he was useful and
did a lot to country, people etc. bottomline is he too was under the human
illusion of seeking the good of ' HIS' country-men. A real Yogi on the
path to the ultimate flowering of the soul sheds all such mere human
bondages. At some stage even the sense of gender/ me/mine/His etc. melt
away.
The closest one can think of the type of human entities which you
refer may be :
a. Ramana Maharishi
b. Ramakrishna Parahamsa
c. Saint Thyagrajar
d. Shri Madhurakavi Alwar)
/anpuTan, Visu
----- Forwarded by S Ramachandran/Custody/KamalaMills/HBL on 01/20/03 09:17
AM -----
"Mukundan
" ,
,
il.com>
( Sasthanga Namaskaram's to all of you for even thinking that
this writer can enlighten such a scholarly and devouted set of members.
The writer is totally floored. He is speechless. He will try his best
but requests and humbly begs the members to take everything he says with a
pinch of salt and test with established principles, the great
Acharyas, the sacred texts and the experience of elders.
In the forthcoming notes, he will attempt to provide some
information.)
=================================================================
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha
Dear All,
First of all, kindly accept my apologies, in case, by any means I would
offend anyone with this mail, though it is never my intent.
I am so happy to see this e-mail on kundalini as it has given me an
excellent opportunity to share one of the BEST kalakshepams I've heard from
my swamy.
The kalakshepam started with the subject on various popular shastras that
are being condemened by great scholars in support of the Saranagathi
Philosophy. Each shastra is examined one by one.
Yoga Shastram: Essence - You put effort to know him. Condemened, due to
numerous reasons. An example was cited by Shri swamy. A rich man exercises
everyday to maintain his body, i.e he needs the tools to maintain it. A
poor
man works a lot and hence his body is in shape due to the very reason that
he is a worker by nature. The poor man needs no tools.
( FIRST AND FOREMOST RESPECTED SIR, YOGA has nothing to do with
physical aspect as a primary tool !! The mind, very roughly lets for
the sake of simplicity refer this as
Chitta, is the starting point. If you read the Yoga Sutras, which is
divided into 4 chapters
the first is "Samadhi padha" and deals with definitions, gross
meanings of what all Yoga
covers. The next chapter "Sadhana Pada" deals with the practical
aspect i.e. the How -to
aspect.
In the first part, Asana (i.e. the physical aspect) ranks third next
to Yama and Niyama which
are social and personal principles. You can readily see therefore,
that the physical aspect
is nothing to do with exercise as commonly understood. In fact, the
subtler purpose of
mediation is to attempt to understand the constant movements inside
the mind.
The economic status (rich or poor) is of no relevance here. Nor is
the body ' maintained'
as a culture. Unregulated, erratic and unconscious movement of the
limbs, senses, and
mind are all sought to be brought into the realm of conscious and
deliberate focus to attain
something other than the gross existence.
Finally, Tarka, Vyakarna are philosophical and theoretical tools to
enable us to
understand the finer aspects of thinking and thoughts, but Yoga is
the only Sastra which
is firmly rooted in practice. Practical, physical, mental effort is
must
Therefore, Yoga is a way of life. The Sandhyavandanam which is
standard for the poor and
rich man has the seeds of Asana, Pranayama, Saranagati. Everything.
Should we condemn
it just because of economic state of the person?)
Similarly, the tools
like yogabyasam etc are for those who do not work:) i.e who donot service
the ultimate after performing saranagathi. But for a person who has done
saranagathi, he needs no special exercise or efforts. The kuntalini is in
him and he is in the state of bliss all the time.
Sir, one chooses the Yogic path to discover something beyond the
known. From a general
service to one-self, the person when he comes in contact with Yoga
undergoes a cathartic change. What is the nature of this change?
The person becomes aware that he/she and the body/senses is not the be
all and end all. That all the pains, sufferings etc. including the maya
needs to be put to order, rest and resolved; that he/she can use only this
body/mind/breath to do this;
The first stricture under Yama is Ahimsa,next Satya,next Asteya.
These are nothing but
social rules which the individual has to adhere in the path of Yoga.
You will immediately
see that all these are connected with society i.e.man's relation to
society and his immediate
surroundings.This includes compassion, pity, empathy, "Prati paksha
Bhavana" (seeing the
other point). These are base principles are to be complied before
he/she graduates to Asana and Pranayama.
It is very obvious therefore, that the person is deeply involved in
the service of his fellow
beings which includes animals, plants, insects also. He is not
concerned with God at this
point. Please read the Patanjali Yoga Sutras.
So please do not misunderstand and condemn Yoga which is the generic
term, while the
offshoots are Bhakti Yoga, Laya Yoga, Tantra Yoga, Karma Yoga, Jyana
Yoga. But all are
Yoga, if you will note. Incidentally, whichever system you take,
whichever path or method you
employ it has to go through the core disciplines outlined in the
Sutras. All the
SriVaishnawa acharyas, all Gurus, all Saiva acharyas, advita, Dwita,
Sri Ramanuja, All the greats who are our preceptors, all have trod
on - knowingly or unknowingly as an divine instinct,the path of
Yoga and arrived at their respective Pedestals
So please do not underestimate Yoga. The core of Bhagwat Gita and
Krishna's discourse
is Yoga. The Greatest and highest Yogi is Krishna Himself.Can you
deny or contradict that ?
Even for Sarnagathi one has to go through the disciplines of Yoga-
Sutra II-1 which says
"Tapah, Swadyaya Iswarapranidani Kriya Yogah:"
Each of the Alwars are nothing but a symbol of Yogic
achievement. The only nomenclature we humans can use to describe
their path is "bhakti Yoga". Being immersed in the goodness of the Lord
is itself a form of Samadhi,an one-pointed focus which is the Dharana,
Dhyana and Samadhi (the last three components of Ashtanga Yoga) - Sutra
II-29
What happens in saranagathi? You give up all and surrender. You give
up all which means
you also give up Your self. You are no longer there to experience
the Saranagathi. There is
only the purity of Silent and reverential surrender. How does one
achieve this? Only
by constant practice - which is what the Yoga Sutras endorse
"Abhyasa Vairagya
Tannirodha". - Sutra I-12
Finally,the proof of the pudding is in the eating. You are free to
quote and give whatever
instances which come to your mind and you will see it will fit into
one or the other
components of Yoga.
As regards your point on such a person being in eternal bliss and not
requiring any
bodily exercise it is absolutely true, but look at the irony of the
whole thing. When
a person attains full saranagathi and is in that state, he has
already stilled his mind
and body,limbs, senses - Sutra II-40 says "Sauchya...Parai..." i..e
inner and extenal
cleanliness being established, there comes about a distinct
distaste/indifference to
for ones own body and senses." Think about this deeply.
Such a person does not need anything obviously to support. So the
preliminary has to be gone through before the finals are taken. And the
preliminary discipline is Yoga.
The rich man has a power. If someone doesn't give what is due to him, he
will send 10 people to scare
( which means he is not following the path of Yoga because
he is indulging in Himsa )
and threaten and get the same. The poor man has
a power that is superior to this rich man's power. When anything unjust is
done to a poor man, if he heartily curses, it will bring 10 rich men to the
roads in no time. If in the lowkika life we see this happening, then in the
spiritual life, one can imagine what is the state of the one who has
performed saranagathi
( Sir, Saranagathi HAPPENS please,it just takes place. One
cannot
perform. You can only make yourself fit for the LORD's glance
and behold
Saranagathi has taken place. The mind has to be emptied for
the pure
to occur.
to the ultimate("akinchanaha; ananyagadhihi;
asaranyaha, tvath paadaravindhayugalam saranamaham prapadhye") when
compared
to the one who performs the yoga etc to bring out the kuntalini by his/her
own efforts.
(Again, going purely by the canonical text of Yoga i.e
the Patanjali Yoga Sutras, Kundalini effort is not relevant.
Kundalini is
not even mentioned. So the question of practice of Kundalini
raising
itself does not arise. However, this does not mean that the
Kundalini
is inconsequential. It has its own relevance and place.)
The Yoga shastra is being condemed due to this path.
(Yoga is not a path. Yoga is Yoga. QED.The Yoga principles
are an eternally assertive truths which require no refutation
nor acceptance. For instance it says " The mind has thought
patterns" Can you justify, or refute or accept or reject
or condemn it? Beat your head against this wall how muchsoever
and no result will happen. The truth will continue to be
valid for 1000 years and beyond.)
I.E when
one puts his/her own efforts to seek the almighty, he/she actually ends up
enjoying the effort that was put in by him/her and hence on all
probabilities falls for the self i.e the atman.
(Very true, but the irony of this point is ask yourself the
basic question?
Why are you born ? why do you do something at all? Try to not
do anything
and be still? No activity or sleep will not yield anything.
Even a base animal
like the miniscule plankton in the sea has to put effort for
mere survival.
The human's effort is to attempt to see and achieve if posisble
that which is beyond
his gross self to that end he/she has to make efforts, either
physical or mental or psychological or materially, or
emotionally or spiritually. Any path, but
nonetheless effort of body mind and breath to know the LORDs blessings.
You can't take Lord's designs for granted.
Again the vision of the Great Patanjali has to be appreciated.
Over 2000 years
ago he contemplated that perhaps on Jan 17, 2003, such-and-such
a person
may have some apprehensions on this aspect of enjoyment of
benefits of
Yogic efforts. Therefore, one needs to keep an answer ready.
The Sutras
say in Chapter three appropriately titled "Vibhuti Pada" powers
which the
efforts will yield. These powers might be tempting and are
OBSTACLES.- Sutra III-38
says "Te samadahatusarga....siddha:" i.e. these powers in the
worldly states
are obstacles.
Patanjali has already foreseen your doubt and responded in HIS
Sutra
that these are obstacles. One should not be deluded by these
powers
which are but a symbol that the person is on the right track.)
This means, yoga shastra
lets you enjoy your effort and before the time you seek the almighty, it
puts you in a trap
(Pardon the writer saying so, but this is utter nonsense and one can
proclaim it gustily aloud. Yoga is a gift to Mankind by Sriman Narayanan
conveyed through his trusted lieutenant Adi Seshan who came down to earth
on the express command of Maha Vishnu and who codified the canons of Yoga.
Something which is based on the Vedas and has come down divinely from the
blessings of the Divya Dampadhis can it ever ever be a TRAP? Please take
back such baseless conclusions !!!!. Please, Sir, Patanjali is depicted
with the Shanka and Chakra and is a
representative of that Greatest of the Great Maha Vishnu. )
where you think YOU had the capability to find HIM and it
was all YOUR efforts.
(One is not sure where your respected self has got these
ideas/concepts. Yoga
does not talk of gender. It does not talk of God. It does not
talk of Brahman.
It does not talk of finding HIM. It does not talk of YOUR
efforts.
It simply declares : The mind is the seat and sole repository
of a human and
with the help of the mind, using the body and breath as support
one can
perhaps come closer to investigating the ultimate reality,
which is again
left undefined. It declares the obstacles,)
This state is often described as "Kaivalyam" (the "Edu
Nilam" in tamizh).
It has been mentioned that going to hell is better than
being trapped in Kaivalyam,
(Would sincerely appreciate if you could
substantiate as to where this is mentoned?)
the reason being, one will get back to this
world from hell and will be given a chance to think of the almighty while
those who are trapped in kaivalyam (it is one of the mokshams as mentioned
by our Purvacharyars) are never freed until the almighty really wants to
free them.
(Which is perfectly alright since it is the Lord's wish.
What is wrong ?)
And hence, Kaivalyam is probably the worst place one should not
go to.
( Respected Sir something is definitely missing in your analysis
The writer is aghast. If you are a votary of Saranagathi, then
no place is worst as long as you are under
the shadow of the Great Cosmic Emperor MAHA VISHNU
Will you ever even conceptually contemplate your children in a
worst
situation ? So even Kaivalyam is a heaven if one is under
true saranagathi.)
Swamy concludes that, due to the various reasons cited above, those paths
need not be adapted for those who have fallen under the protection of Shri
Ramanujar's Saranagathi tattvam. He continues saying that there is nothing
called "Your Effort" to seek him. You belong to him. Our hands do not try
to
know us. They do their duty
(How do you define duty? Duty is effort in the right direction. And
what is the right
direction ? Right direction is in the direction of the path of Yoga
which is physical, mental
psycholigical, psysiological, emotional activity (effort in other
words) towards a goal
beyond the mundane affairs on the material plane.)
and have maha-vishwasam with the atman, that it
will take care of them. Similarly we must do our service to him and must
have the maha-vishwasam on him that he will take care of us and the need
for
other shastras will eventually fade away.
(Sir you are tempting the writer to elaborate a small anacdote about
Lord Shani's powers with Lord Shiva. Once during a debate
everyone declared that Lord Shani will not spare anyone for
his legendary 7-1/2 yrs 'grasp'. Lord Shiva proudly threw
a challenge that He will try to outwit Lord Shani in his endeavours.
Lord Shani
coolly declared "It is fated thus...no one can be spared...when the
time comes I will
do my duty and 'grasp' anyone so destined. Nothing can outwit me...
The challenge was accepted. Lord Shiva said that " Ok Mr.Shani Sir,
tell me the date and time when I am supposed to be under your
grip, and I will try to avoid it. Yo You have to eat
humble pie and say sorry to all if you are defeated?"
'Fair' was a terse remark by Lord Shani who promptly gave a specific
date and time when
Shiva's 7-1/2 yr turn was due to commence.
The day dawned. A few minutes before the relevant time, Lord Shiva
was frantic. He
quietly changed himself into a dark bacteria which thrives in the
sewerage and go himself
into one of the deepest, darkest stream of undergroud sewerage/dirt
and filth.
After an hour past the alloted time, Shiva assumed his real form and
came out to his
proper abode in the heavens and proudly declared that He had
outwitted Lord Shani.
Everyone was eagerly awaiting Lord Shani's apology. Lord Shani being
what he is
casually declared "Look Sir Shiva, why don't you accept defeat?"
Shiva and all were surprised. "Look, how can you say as such. You
could not reach me"
Lord Shani enquired innocently "Oh ! sorry, that is true, but now
that the contest is
over can you tell me where were you during that time?"
Proudly Lord Shiva told him and the others about his bacteria form in
the gutters.
Lord Shani merely said " Sir, but then you were residing in my
drawing room". The darkest
corners, vilest places, the most ugly and dirty place is where I
reside. So at that time
you had already come into my own parlour Sir Shiva. I did not invite
you. You came
of your own volition.
So too Sir, you have meantioned "Mahaviswasam, duty, saranagathi
etc." as
away and superior from Yoga, which are nothing but dis-jointed words
which in a Sutra single
word form is called "Yoga". )
All credits go only to my swamy "Shri Chaturvedi Swamy" and anything that
is
incorrect is purely my mis-interpretation and my apologies for the same.
Om Tat Sat
Yatheendra Pravanam Vandhe RAMYA Jaamaataram Munim
Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,
Lakshmi Narasimhan
--------------------------------------------------------------
- SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -
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